照向理想状态的光 | Casting Light upon the Ideal Condition

ADCNews 劉宇揚建築事務所 2022-03-23

2019年注定是忙碌又纷乱的一年。这过去的12个月，事务所经历了竞图的压力、项目的磨砺、获奖的喜悦。当外部形势变化快速而诡异，保持住的该是一份属于自己的清醒。在一年结束之际，仅以这篇由Archdaily特约作者张益凡先生在今年夏天与刘宇扬老师进行的完整双语版访谈，呈现给支持ALYA的所有业主伙伴和同行好友们。

愿每个人内心都有一束照向理想的光，

点亮未来。祝2020新年快乐！

Archdaily：刘宇扬访谈

Conversation with Liu Yuyang

同济大学附属实验小学

中国特色的社会发展状况为中国当代建筑提供了一个独特的生长环境，而上海作为中国主要的设计中心之一，在一定程度上可视为阅读中国当代建筑的理想切入点。立足于上海的建筑师刘宇扬，出生于中国台湾成长于美国，丰富的人生经历与多元的文化背景使其形成了自身独特的建筑路径，并通过大量的实践项目，显示出了在大环境中自身的话语权。在以下与访谈者张益凡的文章节选中，刘宇扬谈及了他自身的设计思路、理念源起，以及职业精神等内容。

When architecture has been evolving within the context of “Chinese characteristics”, Shanghai as one of the national creative centers provides us with a glimpse of the transformations and the prospects of Chinese contemporary architecture. Based in Shanghai, architect Liu Yuyang, who was born in Taiwan and grew up in America, has conceived his personal architectural approach with the multicultural background, and shared his visions with others by a number of built projects. In the following excerpt from a conversation between Liu Yuyang (LY) and the author (YF), he talks about his design philosophy, origins of practice, the attitude to the profession, and more.

I. 无倾向性

Impartiality

上海申窑艺术中心

张益凡：您主持完成了众多类型的项目，但作品中未见明显个人符号化特征，整体呈现一种“无倾向性”。

Yifan Zhang (YF): By looking into your various kinds of projects, it is hard to find any obvious personal style. Overall, it conveys an impartial feeling.

刘宇扬：“无倾向性”说得非常准确。有一个拉丁文的词在我学生时代就经常被教授提及：a priori。简单理解就是“先入为主”——在任何设计上，你是否有先入为主的思路和立场？就此，我明确采取的是没有先入为主的态度。任何事情，不管是基地条件、项目类型、还是业主个性，在第一瞬间对我来说都是扁平的。我不会一开始就以侧重形式、材料或技术的先入为主观念切入项目。我会在过程中去提炼一些元素。就好比赛马，大家同线起跑，逐渐有一匹马冲到前面，这时，你就是看到了潜能和可发展的突破口；但是前提是这些都是马，比赛总还是在建筑学的体系里去进行，当然这个体系也包括规范因素、社会因素和经济因素等。

Liu Yuyang (LY): The word “impartiality” is an accurate description. The Latin-originated phrase a priori was frequently mentioned when I was going through architectural school. It can be understood as holding a preconceived notion prior to starting a design. From my perspective, I would avoid any preconception before I start to work. Everything from site, typology, or even client’s personality is being viewed equally in the beginning. I will try to search for specific themes during the progress rather than starting with the preset perspective of forms, materials, or techniques. It is like watching horse racing. All horses start from the same line, then gradually some move ahead of the others, which means out of the pack of possibilities, some potentialities emerge. However, do not forget, all those in the race should be horses! What it means is that the choices are still carried out within the architectural terms, including building regulations, social factors, economic considerations, etc.

北京西店记忆文创小镇

张益凡：这个设计思路隐约体现出一种通属的（generic）包容性，最终形成一个稳态。但有的项目中某些设计元素也似乎在充当着稳态中的扰动。

YF: This approach vaguely shows a sense of generic tolerance, which can probably result in a steady state. But some projects seem to show deliberate disturbance within this state by some design elements.

刘宇扬：这可能是我们最后看到的一个结果，未必是方法论的必然。关于包容性，要回溯到我的成长环境。除去“总统府”、圆山饭店这种符号感很强、但与日常城市生活无太大关系的建筑，台湾的城市是非常有包容性、无地标性的——台北101是很晚的事情。我在台北住了几年，台中、台南、台东甚至很小的苗栗我都居住过。作为一名少年，我吸收感受了各种类型的城市空间。而设计的自发性、感性层面的内容，在台湾的城市里也都可以看到。这些经历是不可能被完全掩盖的。这让我很自然在设计上，不管是大型的城市项目、建筑项目或是室内项目，就包容性和通用性有一个比较清晰的价值取向。但这不表示不可以有地标，或者我们的项目不能也成为地标——但它是哪一种地标？肯定不是形态上夸张夺目的那种。

LY: This is perhaps just one final result you have seen, rather a certainty. Speaking in terms of tolerance and generic-ness, it may date back to the environment where I grew up. Cities in Taiwan show an image of being landmark-less and tolerant, with the exception of monuments such as the Presidential Palace, the Taipei Grand Hotel which don’t really participate in the local daily urban life, while the Taipei 101 tower was built after I moved from Taiwan to the U.S.

I lived in Taipei for a few years, and also in other places including Taichung, Tainan, Taitung, even Miaoli which is very small. As a youth, I had experienced different kinds of urban space. Furthermore, spontaneous and emotional aspects can also be sensed in Taiwanese cities. These experiences have enduring effects on me and make me naturally receptive to the concept of tolerance and generic-ness no matter in urban, architectural or interior projects. But it does not mean our cities cannot have landmarks, or our project cannot be a landmark itself—but what kind of landmark will it be? Surely not one with exaggerated but meaningless forms.

喜岳·云庐瑜伽亭及泳池

张益凡：这种包容性和通用性让人自然联想到“商业”，而商业又引出了另一个词“实用”。

YF: This kind of tolerant and generic mindset reminds me of the word “commercial”, and it connects with another definition “pragmatic”.

刘宇扬：这其实是跟社会的一种关系。若你所有的项目都跟商业脱离，其实在一定程度上你跟这个社会是脱离的。不论对错，这只是个人选择。我也希望借机去学习一些商业逻辑并看如何变成设计逻辑，更多时候是我的设计逻辑反过来去引导商业逻辑。但并不是说因为接受一个商业项目就无论如何要干出来，导致出现一些我不认可的结果。

LY: Actually, it’s about forming a relationship with the society. If all of your projects shy away from commercial world, to some extent, you lose contact with society. It is not a right or wrong situation, just a personal choice. Personally, I like to see what I can learn from the commercial logic and then re-interpret it in the design process, and these days it is often the design that in turn guides and challenges conventional commercial logic. More importantly, it does not mean to compromise our design by creating something we don’t believe in.

对于设计，肯定不是简单地说好用、方便；人在“用”这个方面的适应性是很强的，哪怕一个不好用的东西，他都能想办法把它用起来。当然我们的目的不是设计不好用。

About design, of course it is not just a simple question of being usable or convenient. In terms of use, man has very strong adaptability. Even if something does not work so well, man can always find a way to make use of it. Surely our purpose is not to make design ineffective.

喜岳·云庐瑜伽亭及泳池

可以分两个层面来看。首先，空间本身的多用性。比如一个空间，它只能当客房吗？只能当客厅吗？只能当报告厅吗？它能不能有其他的属性？设计如何去允许或者鼓励这种多用途？其次，在特定场景下，因为空间的存在，促使了起初未被需求的功能的发生。例如近期的云庐亭子项目，业主并无会议、聚会之类的功能需要，结果建成之后的第一场活动就是一个高端金融聚会，包括前不久的生日派对也在那里。通过一些建筑策略，这个空间提供了符合当代人体验需求的无限可能性。

Let me explain it in two ways. First, the versatility of space. For instance, if we have a space, can it only be used as a guest room, a living room, or a lecture hall? Can it have other possibilities? How to encourage the versatility and make it happen by design? Second, under certain circumstances, the very existence of space can trigger the function which is not asked for initially. If you look at the yoga pavilion in the Yunlu Resort, our newly finished project, which was not designed for any meeting or party function according to the client’s requirements, you will find the grand opening event was a seminar amongst China’s top financiers. Recently they also hosted a wedding as well as a birthday party there. Through architecture, this space provides users with contemporary rural experiences that were previously un-imagined.

II. 秩序的起点

Beginnings

万科实验幼儿园

张益凡：您之前关于空间和使用的描述让我想起路易斯·康（Louis Kahn）所提的“形式引起功能”（form evokes function），我觉得这其中是有联系的。此外，虽说“无倾向性”，但还可以明显看出您在项目中延续着一种“联接”母题，试图创造一种系统秩序。

YF: The explanation you made about space and use sounds familiar to people knowing the phrase of Louis Kahn: form evokes function. I assume they are related. Although we talk about impartiality, there is consistency appearing in your projects with constant attention on linkages, resulting in a systematic order.

刘宇扬：我在建筑操作层面上有一个比喻：功能体块就像我们身体不同的部分，而这些部分之间是有软组织的。这种软组织让块与块之间的联接具有了模糊性，既不直接碰撞，也不完全独立。只要这个体系够柔软，以内力去回应外力，在面对基地、形态、功能等这些因素的变化时，我的基本策略就不会由于外部因素而被整体翻盘。而且它有很多发展的可能性，是一种类型学的演绎，比如说在联接体上还可以生长出别的东西，甚至某些特殊的功能。

LY: At the operational level, I like to make a biological comparison: each function mass in a project can be regarded as different parts of a body, and between those parts exist the soft tissues, or more specifically tendons and ligaments which connect and empower bones and muscles. The existence of the “soft tissue” as an architectural system endows the connections between different parts with ambiguity, instead of crashing into each other or being completely independent. Facing the change of conditions, e.g. site, forms, functions, this system is resilient enough to respond to the external force by its internal force to ensure the design will not be overturned by other factors. And it has a lot of potential from a typological point of view. For instance, other programs or special functions can grow from this “soft tissue”.

万科实验幼儿园

张益凡：基于这些，我们再回溯到您早年从医学转向建筑学的那个阶段。我感觉您看到索尔克生物研究所（Salk Institute for Biological Studies）那时是一个比较戏剧性的时刻。

YF: Besides all we have talked about, let us go back to your early age when you were changing from the medical study to the major of architecture. Your experience of seeing the Salk Institute for Biological Studies seems quite dramatic to me.

刘宇扬：其实这是一种成长过程，而不是在某一个阶段突然想到要如何做。当时我正在思考之后的专业走向，看到索尔克研究所是一个关键点，同时心中也酝酿有几个小片段。大约15岁时我在曼谷看到皇宫以及很多寺庙，第一次感受到空间的强烈秩序，那是与建筑专业完全无关的个人体验。18岁时我去了东京，在距离不远的热海也看到了一个寺庙，名字已经不记得了。与日本很多寺庙类似，经过蛮长的一段参道，再到第一进的院门，然后再进入，之后再走一段。当然现在回过头去看，这是典型的寺庙行进路径。这两件事在我脑子里发酵，让我开始感受这种路径、秩序感。这种秩序是序列式的，一段有，一段又松弛，是一种中间断开的连续性。

LY: That was a process rather than a sudden move. I was thinking about my future career at that time. When I visited the Salk Institute for the first time, everything clicked. Several other trips predated my visit to the Salk. I visited Bangkok when I was 15. There I saw the Royal Palace and temples which for the first time made me feel the order of space strongly without prior architectural knowledge. I visited Japan when I was 18, and in a small town named Atami, I saw a temple which was similar to many others in Japan. A long sandō or path of procession precedes one’s arrival at the first gate. Upon entering, one then takes another path towards the next gate, such is a classical spatial sequence of a temple. Memory of these experiences was rooted in my mind and created a sense of order in a sequential way, one segment after another, alternating between presence and absence, as a kind of interrupted continuity.

喜岳·云庐酒店

后来加州大学圣地亚哥分校的经历对我也是一个催化剂。那里的校园空间提供了一种结合地形的规划体验，同时各个建筑又在粗野主义（Brutalism）统一性下各自展现出独特性。从某种意义上，这些在我真正学习建筑之前就已经给我灌输了关于秩序的想法，它不是一种绝对的秩序，而是相对的。

The subsequent undergraduate years at the University of California San Diego was also a catalyst. The campus provided me with an experience of planning integrated with topography and landscape. Each building there had its own character while collectively all were designed in a coherent modern-brutalist language. In a sense, before starting to learn architecture I had already been influenced by a relative sense of order instead of an absolute one.

洋泾港步行桥

康的建筑当然非常纯粹。当时我并不是因为学习建筑就奔着它去，我只是听说，就去了，之前并没看过照片。穿过一片树林，然后就是一种被震撼的感觉。这与我先读了建筑学，先在书本上研究它之后再去现场，是不一样的。之后我还多次回访。除去经典的轴线对称，我观察更多的还有两边功能性建筑的连廊联接方式。可能这些事情都加深了我对秩序的理解。当然，这栋建筑太经典了，也是很多人实践的坐标原点。

Of course, Kahn’s building is very pure. I went to see the Salk before starting my formal architectural education. Upon hearing of the building, I went without having seen any of its photos. It was somewhat of a shock after passing through the woods and then seeing the scene of the building unexpectedly, which I believe would have been a very different experience if I had prior architectural knowledge of it. I have revisited it many times since. Besides the sacredly symmetrical courtyard, I also like to observe how the passageways connect the functioning units. Probably these have helped me understand order. Obviously, this building is so classic that many architects take it as their starting point.

张益凡：这种原初性的感知想必是非常难忘的。

YF: It sounds like an unforgettable primitive feeling, just naturally.

刘宇扬：于我来说，其实这是一种很直接、或是很直觉的体验，它不是经过专业训练之后的一种解读。这种体验可以说是无可复制的，也就是说很多经验你只能有一次。如果你足够敏感的话，你可以吸收到那第一次给你的特殊性。这对我来说是很珍贵的。这也就解释了为什么你看我很多项目比较少重复。过去这么多年来，我试图尽量多地保持或者创造这种第一次的新鲜感。

LY: For me, it was a very straightforward or intuitive experience, without any professional mindset involved. That feeling itself can be regarded as unrepeatable, meaning many experiences you can only have them once with a fresh mind. If you are sensitive enough, you can absorb the specificity brought by this first-time encounter. Freshness is very precious to me, which can explain why repetition can hardly be seen in my projects. During the past years, I have tried to keep, or re-create, this feeling of freshness as much as possible.

张益凡：您的这种描述其实让我想起禅宗所提的“棒喝”，以及叔本华提倡的“直观”审美，其实都是与某种“真相”或 “理想”的联接。结合到建筑师所谓的“创作”，我们不妨从文化的角度来看一下广为人知的《创世纪》的开头。它其实呼应了一个问题：对象，或者说形式，存在的依据是什么？当然先哲们提供了不同的解答，其中就有“理想型”（Forms）这么一说。

YF: This description made me think of Arthur Schopenhauer's aesthetics, which connects with some “truth” or “ideas”. More intriguingly, speaking of architects’ “creation”, the beginning of the well-known story of Genesis also implies the similar topic: what the form’s origins are. There are various explanations of it, one of which agrees on the existence of “Forms” or “Ideas”.

刘宇扬：我的建筑本身不追寻所谓的理想型，但一直寻求一种“理想状态”（ideal condition）。包括对地形的回应、与周边建筑的对话、跟业主的交流等等。通过对话来形成一个项目的理想态。这里面带有一定的情感、直觉成分，以及很多我能够学到的知识。主义和理论，我都会通过阅读试图去多了解，但我不是理论型建筑师。对于我，一个实践建筑师，最重要的还是在面对每一个项目的时候，怎么处理——有的处理得好一点，有的处理得不尽理想——只能透过每一次的经验，试图让自己再犀利一点。

LY: Instead of going after so-called ideal forms, each of my architecture keeps pursuing an ideal condition, including responses to the topography, dialogues with surrounding buildings, communication with clients, etc. An ideal condition of a project results from conversations. Emotions and intuitions are part of it, as well as a lot of experiences I have got. I am always trying to know more about theories through reading, but I am not a theorist. As a practicing architect, I focus more on how to deal with every project—sometimes good, and sometimes acceptable—and by gaining experience each time, so as to sharpen myself bit by bit.

同济大学附属实验小学

我觉得建筑师在一定程度上还是带着一点造物主自上而下的感觉，并不是说业主要怎么做，你帮他实现而已。创造性是不可否认的。你看《创世纪》里还有一个内容：上帝对他的创造非常满意（God was very pleased with his creation）。这是有一种愉悦性在里面。从这个角度来看设计工作，这种愉悦感是超出所谓的形式、方法、风格、主义的。这是我在创作时希望能够保持的，但包括之前提的新鲜感，这些都会越来越难实现。因为经历过相当时间的实践后，你一定会在某种意义上重复很多事。那么此时的问题就在于如何保持这种感觉，这对我是一个挑战。另一个挑战是关于场所语境（context）。我们的实践地是上海、北京、深圳这类的中国当代城市，大部分的环境是缺乏紧凑性的，新用地太缺乏显著的地形变化。

Concerning “creation”, architects still have some top-down feelings of power. We do not simply act as the clients ask, and creativity is a sure thing. Actually, there is another message from Genesis: God was very pleased with his creation. It contains a feeling of pleasure. From this point of view, the pleasure goes beyond all forms, methods, styles and theories. This is what I want to maintain in my design. But together with the “freshness” I mentioned before, it will be more and more difficult to keep as time goes by. To some extent, the repetition is hard to avoid after certain years of practice. It has become a challenge to always retain this feeling of freshness. And the other challenge lies in the topic of context. I am practicing mainly in the Chinese contemporary cities, e.g. Shanghai, Beijing, Shenzhen, where most of the situations lack urban compactness, and the new towns lack significant topographical conditions.

III. 演进的视角

Evolving Perspectives

五原路工作室

张益凡：历史文脉、社区营造和智慧未来，是您目前主要的三个关注点？

YF: As you mentioned in some files, do you mainly focus on “historical context”, “community revitalization”, and “smart future” now?

刘宇扬：大概三年前，我梳理了一下过往的工作，归纳出了这三个线索；当然这也是标签的一种，有助于他人更快地理解。它既不是目标，也不是宣言；就像是结构与结构之间的一个节点，它并非完整结构，但它对整体结构肯定起到一定作用。有了这个之后，我在做新项目时，心里会想它到底属于哪一类？还是说我可以不理会这个？如果不理会是不是就放弃掉？我还在思考。

LY: About three years ago, I sorted out all of the works I had done and arrived at these three thematic types. Surely this is also a kind of labels with which others can have a quicker understanding of the projects. They are neither a goal nor a manifesto. It is more like a tectonic detail, which plays its own role in the overall structure while not being a complete structure by itself. Since I got these three points, I have started to think about the thematic types when I take on a new project. Will I continue to care about it or just give up on trying to classify more? I do not know yet.

其实有时候更重要的是保持一种心态，不去试图把所有事情都变成一个完整叙事，很多时候你想要表达的不一定就那么全面。我认为这里面有很多可变的、可成长的、可进化的空间。前两天我因为写一篇文章，就翻阅到上海2035年总体规划文件，当时就感觉到自己好像很久没去有意识关注这个层面的事了，突然就有一种熟悉感。应该再好好挖掘，回到宏观层面，其中可能有不少有趣的点。

Actually, it is more important to keep an attitude that most of the time the meaning you want to express is not always so comprehensive and there is no need to make everything a complete narration. I think there is space for changing, growing, and evolving. A couple of days ago, I came across the official documents of Shanghai 2035 master plan when I was working on another article. I suddenly got a feeling of familiarity because these are the type of documents I had read lots of while working on the Pearl River Delta research with Koolhaas and the Harvard team in the mid-90’s. It had been a long time since I paid attention to things at this macro-strategic level, which contains interesting insights and possible prospects about the direction a city may take to grow and evolve.

五原路工作室

张益凡：确实依旧可以看出您20年前跟随雷姆·库哈斯（Rem Koolhaas）做的珠江三角洲城市化研究对您视角的影响。除去这些技术性内容，我还很好奇的是，您说过“建筑师犹如天使”，要“重现看不见的光”，具体指的是什么？

YF: The influence from the China’s Pearl River Delta research you conducted under Rem Koolhaas can still be seen in your perspective. Besides all these professional talks, I am also curious about one of your statements where you said rhetorically “architects are like angels” to “revive the extinguished light”. What does it mean?

刘宇扬：这是基于行业专业性的一种比喻，比如你是医生，你也是天使，你有责任告诉病人是非对错。在专业性上，不是简单的我尊重你的意见，还是有一些要捍卫坚持的东西。而“光”是比喻建筑给人们的感受，因为我自己亲身经历过，比如还没有专业学习的时候，看到了一个建筑，就看到了那束光。那么通过我们创造的东西，哪怕是很小的项目，你会看到使用者在这个空间中产生的那种愉悦感。我觉得这个就是我们可以带给人的光，不管是有意识或无意识的，重点是他感受得到。这是我们最终的一个目标——不求改造世界，但求为人们带来一束光。（笑）

LY: This is an allegory based on professionalism. For a doctor, he or she is also an angel, because there is responsibility to tell patients what is right and what is wrong. Speaking of professionalism, it is not a simple question of respecting others’ opinions, and there is something need to be held on to. And the “light” stands for the feelings brought to people by architecture. Because I had experienced it even before I studied architecture. By our creations, no matter big or small, you can sense the pleasure from users when they step into the space. I think this is the light we can bring to people, and they can feel it either consciously or unconsciously. This is the goal: not to change the world, but to cast people with a ray of light. (Laughs)

贺卡制作：ALYA Media

建筑摄影：

喜岳 · 云庐酒店：苏圣亮

喜岳 · 云庐瑜伽亭及泳池：田方方

同济大学附属实验小学：陈颢

五原路工作室：陈颢

江桥申窑艺术中心及酒店：朱思宇

万科实验幼儿园：陈颢

北京西店记忆销售中心：朱思宇

洋泾港步行桥：田方方

原文首发于Archdaily建日筑闻：

刘宇扬：“不求改造世界，但求为人们带来一束光”